Inclusion Works Ep.70 Fiona Ibáñez-Major

Fiona shares her own experience of Imposter Syndrome and explores how our workplaces can create and support feelings of inadequacy.  She also examines the stigmatizing nature of imposter syndrome, how it intersects with race and class, and how viewing the world in questions rather than answers can help us challenge the systems that perpetuate imposter syndrome.

See what else Fiona’s been up to here

If you require or prefer an audio transcript, see below:

Presenter, Zoe Allerding:

Welcome back to Inclusion Works.

I’m your host, Zoe Allerding, and I run the diversity, equity and inclusion practice at Hive Learning.

Our guest today is Fiona  Ibáñez-Major,  Global Director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Food+ by Compass Group.

Previously, Fiona served as the Senior Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for Walgreens Boots Alliance, where she led the strategic approach and implementation of Diversity & Inclusion initiatives across Europe, Asia and the  Americas.

Fiona believes inclusion is  inextricably linked to both business outcomes & talent engagement, and she’s passionate about unlocking potential to drive high performance and wellbeing through more human, inclusive organizations.

Fiona  – thank you so much for being with us today,  it’s so great to have you on the show.

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

Thank you for having me, Zoe.

Zoe Allerding:

First up, I want to ask you something  we ask all our guests on Inclusion Works:  Can you tell us what personal experiences made you aware of inclusion & diversity issues and led to your work in this field?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

All had experiences of being outgroup. Thinking back to moving from Spain to England – at 9 – and trying to adjust to new language, school, country, make friends.  And such a  difference when someone took a chance on me.

In previous company; whilst hiring for role in team, myself and my boss interviewing a candidate male candidate. There was a possibility he may have  to relocate and when asked if his family would be okay, he said that he thought his wife would be fine as he believes women belong at home not at work.   Shock – first encounter – there is still work to be done!  Boss then agreed with him.  Shock turned to shame or embarrassment – this is a reminder that there are hidden beliefs and systems at play that are persistent and that are real barriers.  How women can progress in workplace.  

A few years later, new organization, in a commercial role, I noticed that colleagues  were mostly women.  And most customers were women.  And yet, senior leaders announcement – men, white, middle aged.  Quite common. Felt curious.  Built a coalition of support, wrote a paper, tap into a broader talent pool – led to the orgs first DEI role.

Today, we’re going to talk about imposter syndrome.  All of us have probably heard if it at this point, we may have even experienced it as well, I know I have.  And I kind of accepted it as-is. 

But then, a little over a year ago, I saw a post on twitter that made me start thinking about imposter syndrome differently.   The post, which was written by Devi Bhattaraii  said “I no longer entertain the idea of Imposter syndrome because it feels like a career gaslighting. Women and other underrepresented groups aren’t suffering entirely from imposter syndrome; they’re suffering in a system that wasn’t designed with their success in mind.” 

I read that and thought – whoa – there’s an undercurrent here I’ve totally missed.  And I know this is something thats been on your mind too, so today, I’d love to dig into that with you. 

Zoe Allerding:

What’s your take, on imposter syndrome?  Your experience of it, and maybe how your opinion on it has changed over time?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

I tend to agree.   Where the term came from, we adopt the wording but don’t think about terminology. Studies in the 70s found that despite achievements, a select group of women would have this belief that they weren’t really deserving and had fooled people.  This feeling of inadequacy and inability to access your confidence results in self sabotage, self doubt, setting unrealistic goals and berating self for not reaching them.  Many people felt that.  Have felt those previously. 

Feel what we call imposter syndrome  at key life moments;new promotion, changing function , changing orgs, returning from maternity leave. Your identity is up for grabs a bit – and when you open the door on identity – lets doubt creep in as well.  

Put less of onus on individual – and more on the why?  Why do women, and other marginalised groups have this experience?  The study wasn’t all encompassing of intersections – women of color, background, income – and widely felt by other identities.  

Useful label to name the thing you’re feeling.  But as we move forward – must think about why.

Zoe Allerding:

How have you seen it play out in the workplace?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

Individual promoted with clear mandate but no clear support or resources or network.  Really high talent held to higher standard to gain top performance rating, promotion, while others get it on potential alone.  Make assumptions on talented individuals based on their personal lives

On paper – accessing opportunities, but never feeling that belonging or flow that you need to be able to perform – not really fully setting up for success.  Am i good enough?

Zoe Allerding:

What’s the impact on people from underrepresented or marginalized groups – maybe women of color, neurodiverse folks, etc…?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

Follow thinking – rather than onus on individual – caused by environment and lack of belonging.  Bias is over-impacting  certain groups, so follows that if the bias exists in systems – regardless of what their role is or what on paper – if consistently overlooked, interrupted, not invited, not networked – microaggressions – continue to receive message that you’re not enough

Self fulfilling prophecy – self doubt, and then intersections cause microaggressions – this extra layer.  Performance might not be there b/c no support – additional barrier to success.

Zoe Allerding:

You’ve previously said that even the term ‘imposter syndrome’ is stigmatizing – there’s this assumption in the terminology that the problem is you.  Can you tell us a little bit about that, and how you see our work environments feeding into the idea that this is just a personal problem to be overcome?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

Devi makes a great point; does feel like gaslighting but look around  and build your confidence.  I think the term itself is stigmatizing-  ‘imposter’ has connotations of criminality – ‘syndrome’ – medical – speaks to hysteria. Hysterical.  None of it is speaking to the why – this person – in a vacuum,  feels like they aren’t good enough. Things don’t happen in the background.  Conditions impact self belief.  Shift needs to be around creating a sense of belonging and psych safety – failure – workplaces designed to be immune from failur.  Starts back at school – don’t fail, do as told, failure is bad.  Normalizing failure is something more workplaces are trying to get to – have to do some unlearning – not sharing bad news doesn’ t help either – can’t ask Qs or take risk without personal cost.   

Zoe Allerding:

What do you think gets missed when we jump to ‘fixing’ ourselves?  Or fixing the person who is experiencing imposter syndrome,  or even the person who we think just needs more confidence?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

Inefficient more than anything – one person at a time – missing opportunities to address the big question of the why – fundamental root cause – much more impactful and get to a better place faster if we can be honest about the challenges and the reality.  Reassess what values are.

Missed opportunity  to be real about how things work and how people progress and how people succeed. 

Not easy to do – build your confidence is easier – here’s a mentor – may have impact, but may not – mentorship v sponsorship, and lift as climb. Harder to say, lets look at the systems.

Zoe Allerding:

We can agree that it’s problematic on numerous fronts, but that probably won’t change the fact that it’s still something that people can feel acutely. What do you think people can do, individually, if they are experiencing imposter syndrome?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

First – difference between imposter syndrome and what is a healthy unease of being in growth zone. Outside comfort zone and doing new things – that can be a helpful driver – I don’t know enough about this vs. the questioning of whole self of identity, and that comes from the environment – stacked against you – don’t know the rules of own game.  Questioning your reality – I deserve to be here, earned my way here  – but not feeling it – environment problem. 

Trusted colleagues or friend or coached  – speak to in an honest and vulnerable way – base thinking on facts and reality – talking it out

Also – celebrating small successes along way.  Don’t always get chance to stop and reflect – and that builds muscle of self belief.  For her – letting go of perfectionism – enemy of growth.  To let go of needing to get it right all the time and have all the answers and embrace that fact.  Often the voice that comes along with it is ‘you don’t know, they’re going to find you out’ – don’t need to know what i’m doing all the time – and asking Qs – really powerful  and powerful to create that psych safety – trying to foster psych safety and showing the vulnerability or that you’ve failed – can help build environment

Zoe Allerding:

Thinking more broadly – not just for the folks experiencing imposter syndrome – but for all of us – what do you think we can do to challenge the systems that perpetuate imposter syndrome?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

If we go along same line – create psychological safety – one muscle we can build is intellectual curiosity and that helps bring down systems with inequities. Being open – view world in questions rather than answers.   Why this way? Who at table? What if we did this instead?  Practice this – practce being curious.  Why are we doing it? Especially with big projects and people decisions – dismantling the way things have always been done.  Opportunities to interject a little bit.  Operate in insight, not just the way we’ve always done it.  

Zoe Allerding:

What’s one simple thing anyone could do this week to build inclusion in their workplace?

Fiona  Ibáñez-Major:

Get an informal coffee with a person who always disagrees with you – and we all have  these people – seek that difference and discomfort – people who view differently – normalize and build those relationships – can help with understanding and curiosity – personally and professionally.

Do our bit to normalise failure  and embrace failure as a learning tool – start team meetings with – everyone share a fail and you go first.  And you set the tone for that.  Stops us from innovating, and from growing, and psych safety – need to feel like our ideas can be heard, and that its okay to fail 

Zoe Allerding:

Thanks so much for sharing your insights with us today. I’m sure there’s a lot for our listeners to take away from this session.